Autore Topic: [Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto  (Letto 9782 volte)

Marco Costantini

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #45 il: 2011-05-25 23:14:24 »
Ok, il ripetere aiuta, si sa. Ora ho già un'idea più chiara del tipo di conflitto magia e del come si dichiara. Tra l'altro l'aver avuto questi chiarimenti mi ha reso anche più chiaro un altro dubbio e cioè la possibilità, da parte del GM, di dichiarare un conflitto su Magia. Se prima mi sembrava un evento piuttosto difficile, ora mi pare molto più normale e facile. Bene.

L'unico ultimissimo punto che non mi è del tutto chiaro è: come si ci comporta con quelle dichiarazioni di "colore" che avvengono durante tipi di conflitti diversi da "magia"?
Esempio:
siamo in combattimento e io descrivo la mia TB che mentre sferra un pungo sul grugno di un gigante, carica il suo braccio dell'energia crepitante di un fulmine.
La mia domanda è: ciò è possibile solo usando reroll?
Come risposta basata anche un secco sì/no :)
Escalo a Fisico: ti abbraccio.

Antonio Caciolli

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #46 il: 2011-05-25 23:17:54 »
da come ho capito è sì

Mauro

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #47 il: 2011-05-26 00:24:52 »
La discussione è in slow down, attenti al limite giornaliero.

Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #48 il: 2011-05-26 13:16:04 »
Io invece ho capito diverso, ammetto che il mio inglese è limitato, ma non vedo perchè non possa introdurre dell'enfasi narrativa e di colore nel descrivere la mia azione di combattimento!
Non si tratta di usare la magia, ma di sottolinearne la presenza mentre agisco con altri conflitti.
Anzi mi par di capire che se è solo descrizione va più che bene, ma è il GM che può stopparti se ci vede una gabola per avere un vantaggio "magico" nella fiction, al chè ci sta il re roll ecc. ecc.

Ezio

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #49 il: 2011-05-26 14:05:19 »
Posso dare un consiglio a tutti?


Prendetela ancora più con calma di quanto suggerirebbe lo slow down. Ron ci sta leggendo via Google Translate e dovrebbe riuscire a rispondere nel prossimo paio di giorni.
Pare che (come sospettavo... è sempre così :-P) la stiamo facendo più complicata di quanto sia. Vi chiederei quindi di tenere presente, se decideste di fare un reply a questo thread, che c'è un povero cristo dall'america che ci legge con quella trappola di google translate. Se avete qualcosa di nuovo e importante da dire fatelo senza problemi, altrimenti potrebbe valer la pena aspettare ^^
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #50 il: 2011-05-26 14:07:35 »
fanmail a Ron!
Patrick Marchiodi, il Valoroso ~ Bravo Organizzatore di CONTM ~ Prima gioca, poi parla. ~ "La cosa più bella di INC11 è stata giocare con persone conosciute da due ore e avere l'impressione di giocare con amici di una vita" - Dario Delfino

Mattia Bulgarelli

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #51 il: 2011-05-26 15:11:41 »
[Waves to Ron]

Yes, Google translate it a b***h, expecially to and from Italian.

Also, the informal language we use here is full of figures-of-speech, so... If anything sounds WEIRD, 50% is a mistranslation, 50% it's just us! XD

When in doubt, ask!
Co-creatore di Dilemma! - Ninja tra i pirati a INC 2010 - Padre del motto "Basta Chiedere™!"

Tronk

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #52 il: 2011-05-26 15:21:55 »
Partendo dal fatto che la risposta alla domanda di partenza è giè stata trovata (e riassunta da Moreno al post #41) rimane da chiarire quanto un conflitto sociale/combattimento possa essere "colorato" con la magia pur rimanendo sociale/combattimento.
Come sembrano confermare le diverse voci in questa discussione non esiste uno standard per il livello di magia. Il setting di Trollbabe, correggetemi se sbaglio, non è scolpito nella pietra e il livello di magia può (deve?) essere fissato secondo quanto il gruppo trova accettabile e gradisce.
L'esempio del conflitto sociale in cui la Trollbabe picchia Tizio per farlo parlare ci insegna che quello che conta è ciò che la Trollbabe vuole ottenere:
- conflitto: combattimento: con i pugni rivestiti di fiamme lo colpisco ripetutamente in faccia potrebbe andare se si vuol vedere molta magia_
- conflitto: combattimento: lo fisso negli occhi e lo faccio addormentare assolutamente no! Anche che il livello di magia è più basso (nel senso di meno appariscente, non modello DnD) non va bene perché non sta facendo del male.

Tornando al descrivere effetti magici al di fuori di un conflitto: assumendo che al gruppo stia bene, una Trollbabe che fluttua per le strade della città avrà un impatto differente rsipetto ad una che passeggia? E' una domanda retorica, certo che si. C'è bisogno di un conflitto? Non necessariamente, dipende dalla posta e dai PNG: se serve il GM lo saprà e lo chiamerà.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Ron:
As the different voices in this thread seem to confirm, there isn't one standard for the magic dial. Trollbabe's setting, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't written in stone and said dial could (should?) be set according to what the group finds acceptable and enjoyable.
The example of social conflict in which the Trollbabe punches Guy to make him talk teaches us what matters is what the Trollbabe is trying to accomplish:
- conflict: combat: with my fists cloaked in flame I punch him repeatedly in the face could be ok if you like a lot of magic;
- conflict: combat: I stare him eye to eye and he falls asleep hell no! Even if the magic level is lower (as in less flashy, not in a DnD kind of way) you can't because you are not trying to hurt him.
Apart from the magic level, if the Trollbabe is killing the giant by chopping him with an axe or with fire fists there isn't any difference, is there? She's trying to kill him, face to face.

Back to describing magical effect outside conflict: assuming it's ok with the group, is a Trollbabe that's gliding in the town streets going to have a different impact from a Trollbabe that's walking? That's retorical, of course it will. Does it need a conflict? Not necessarily, it depends on the stake and the NPC: the GM will now if it's needed and will call it or not.

Ron Edwards

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #53 il: 2011-05-27 10:37:37 »
Hi everyone,

I am unsatisfied with parallel conversations between the Forge and GCG. It seems wrong to me that a few people can scurry from a complex conversation here over to there, engage and enlist me through a necessarily limited summary of the issue, and then take whatever I say back here as a kind of Pronouncement of Mass Destruction to use in that conversation. The implied notion that some few people are "close to Ron" and others are not is especially obnoxious, and I can tell from some threads here at GCG that resentment about it is already understandably rising. I know that people posting at the Forge have not necessarily intended for this effect to occur, but I think the negative side of the result is nearly unavoidable. That's one of the reasons I'd like to become active at GCG itself in the first place, because the community and audience there should be respected.

So this particular thread is the last time I'll answer a GCG question at the Forge, or at least, when the question is already the subject of a complex thread there. Individual questions from Italians (or anyone else) are perfectly all right at the Forge from now on, but if it has to do with some thread of that kind, please let me know and I'll participate here.

I've posted this at the Forge as well and we can continue the discussion here.

Magic and Conflicts, part 1: the rules

The single concept which makes the entire four pages at GCG a hundred times easier is this: conflicts in Trollbabe are not fixed into a relationship with the fiction prior to any single instant of play. You cannot say, "She magically flies through the air," and look it up on a page in the rules and find a table which lists all the fictional magical things which require the conflict mechanics. Instead, conflicts are called when someone says they apply. Always. Period.

There are some obvious reasons why this point hasn't been properly applied in the CGC discussion and some subtle reasons. One obvious reason is what Moreno referred to at one point, "Are you playing GURPS or Trollbabe?" To say that Trollbabe operates differently from a game in which every action and effect is effectively pre-played by the mechanics, rendering the people speaking effectively mouthpieces for those mechanics, is true - but it's not sufficient. A more subtle and more important reason - i.e. a way to understand my point - is that the rule says, "someone" - not the GM, for instance. That is crucial. It means, among other things, that what makes a conflict in Trollbabe is not "judged by the GM" in the way such things are judged in, say, Primetime Adventures or Dogs in the Vineyard. Both of those games are a bit retrograde for this variable compared to their "parent," Trollbabe, although they too, unlike GURPS, allow certain things to occur without going to direct mechanics, under certain circumstances.

I will try to clarify. We'll start with the easiest case: the player states something the trollbabe does and says, "Conflict!" All done. It's a conflict. We figure out her goal and the Action Type, and go into fair-and-clear.

Now for the more interesting case. The player states something the trollbabe does and happens not to say "Conflict!" This does not necessarily mean the player does not think it is a conflict - maybe he or she does, and hasn't said it yet, or doesn't feel the need to say it because the conflict seems obvious. Or maybe, alternatively, the player does in fact intend it as Color and didn't have the mechanics of conflict in mind for play at that moment. Or maybe, in the heat of the moment, that particular level of abstraction isn't on the player's mind at all.

As you know, the GM is now perfectly legally permitted to say "Conflict!" in which case, it's exactly the same thing as the easy case except that the GM chooses the Action Type and sets the Pace.

All of the above works perfectly in reverse for a situation in which the GM states the actions of an NPC and might or might not happen to say "Conflict!" Just switch "player" and "GM" in the above three paragraphs and consider it to be three more paragraphs in this discussion.

With all that in mind, I hope you can see my point: a stated action in Trollbabe must get through a filter composed of two people's views on whether that action carries with it an inherent conflict to be addressed by the mechanics. It doesn't matter which one states the action. It doesn't matter which one says "Conflict!" The hard, fast, concrete, never to be ignored rule is that when someone does say it, it is.

And here's a key factor in that rule: it is never negotiated. You never, ever!, ever!!, ever!!! discuss this as an issue in play. The rule does not require agreement. It is in fact built to ignore, bypass, and obviate any need to arrive at agreement. It is not a consensual rule. That is why I do not support the idea that this issue is a dial to be "set" in the sense of pre-play discussion or during-play discussion. You do not "set" the dial in a deliberate way. You find out as you go along.

So a lot of that GCG conversation is completely beside the point. "I say she does X! Would that be a conflict?" The only answer is to ask, in play, do you say it is when you say that? And if you don't, does the other person say it is? Because if so, then it is. There is no other possible answer. "Would that be" is an inadmissible concept when discussing the conflcts in Trollbabe.

Magic and Conflicts, part 2: social creativity

i) All of the above means re-evaluating the entire context of how you talk when playing this game. In older RPGs, when you say X, it's effectively assumed that mechanics X must be applied. Since a lot of the time that led to problems in terms of Creative Agenda, people found a number of ways to violate that idea, most of them deceptive, passive-aggressive, or both. Trollbabe does something different; it simply uses a different idea. The idea is that whenever you provide input into the fiction, you have to be prepared for the other person to make it a conflict, if you haven't done so yourself. If you can't accept that, and want to have 100% control over whether you will go to dice or not (by being the table's rules-expert or by being the GM of a traditional game, for instance), then this isn't the game for you.

As a more general point, I wonder whether a great deal of talking about RPGs is really an exercise in generating a complete and thorough model of what play will produce, before you play. This kind of talk - or what I think I see, anyway - is a symptom of not having any confidence that the entire activity will actually be fun. It's a way to know exactly what the game will do before you commit to it. However, it's also counter-productive for the kinds of games I write. There are a lot of indie games available for which this kind of talk is well-suited, although I frankly dislike these games intensely and consider them intellectually and emotionally trivial. My games are built to prompt emergent properties of play which simply cannot be anticipated. You will not be able to know "how Trollbabe will go" by working out exactly what will happen if you say X, or if you say Y, or if you say Z, prior to play.

ii) If I were a gamer, which I am, then I would read everything in part 1 and the first thing I'd say would be, "That means if no one says it is, then it isn't a conflict! Wow! I could play Trollbabe and never go to the dice!" However, that is actually the one thing not to do. It's why I made all those diagrams in the section about scenes. Given the opening of the scene, the people at the table must make the characters do things, say things, and move around. This must be occurring long before anyone starts talking about conflicts.

Let's take a look at what that is like for the people playing trollbabes. It means that if at any time, someone thinks his or her trollbabe wouldn't like something or would be disadvantaged by something or wants to overcome or change something, that person shouts out "Conflict!" Let me ask you now: if you are playing your trollbabe, and you have gone through the whole process (hair, horns, et cetera), and if you are in fact engaging with a scene by having the trollbabe move through space and talk with people and do things ... then do you think you could stand to have her accept everything she wouldn't like, tolerate every disadvantage, and pass up on overcoming or changing things? This woman? Do that all that way through an adventure?

Let's also look at what that is like for GMs, who don't have the visceral and imaginative fire of a conceived trollbabe in their mind - instead, the GM has the Stakes. That means one or more NPCs, probably more than one, who wants those Stakes and what is more, wants them the way they want them. In the same way I challenged the player above, I will now say that you are the GM, and I challenge you: if the trollbabe does anything assertive, will that very act upset the calculations and desires of one or more NPCs? Do you think you could say "no" to that question throughout a series of scenes, all the way until the end of fhe adventure. (Small but useful side point: This is especially useful for the GM because, although he or she cannot introduce new information, he or she can in fact use information that is unknown to the player.)

Both of these are directly related to magic because (i) doing it is very, very assertive; and (ii) someone in a location who can do magic is very, very noticeable and relevant to anyone interested in the Stakes.

Magic and Conflicts, part 3: aesthetics

If I were more oriented toward anime and 1990s gaming-fantasy than toward underground comix and Norse sagas, which I'm not, I would also say, "So my Trollbabe can shoot fire from her magic tiara! She can turn 50 meters tall! She can have magic lasers rotating on her head! She can turn into a hippogriff and a Japanese ogre!" None of this is true. And I claim that the rules say it isn't true.

Again, this isn't about setting a dial. You have a very limited, very specific text which provides exactly what everyone at the table may treat as known information. This is the opening piece about trollbabes and the setting material, including the map. Simply treat that as "known information" and use it. Going outside of those parameters is "new information" and the player has no authority to do this. Also, in the section about magical content and monsters for the GM to use when preparing an adventure, the rules are more restrictive than you may realize. The GM is not allowed to create extravagant monsters and magic all over the place as pure Color.

In conclusion

I hope you can see that parts 1-3 above are intended to reinforce one another. 3 supports 2 because the genre enhances and specifies that kinds of conflicts that people will intrinsically spot (and create) in situations. 2 supports 3 because the role-played interactions and the narrated outcomes of conflicts make the setting and genre more vivid and specific for that group. And 2 and 3 together reinforce 1 because one person's every statement becomes a window of opportunity for the other person, and 2 and 3 together create what statements are most likely to do so.

I hope this was a helpful post. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Best, Ron
Fanmail to everyone!!

Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #54 il: 2011-05-27 16:07:31 »
hoooo!!! Bellissima risposta!
GRAZIE MILLE!
Ora ci rifletterò per almeno 2 giorni ;)

Ezio

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #55 il: 2011-05-27 16:56:01 »

BILINGUAL POST: English/Italian
POST BILINGUE: Inglese/Italiano

Hi Ron,


It's wonderful to read of your direct partecipation on GcG. There will be probably some issue about language (the forum community isn't entirely bilingual), but I hope we will work together to resolve them. By myself I'm at your disposition for anything, as is all the "staff" and... well, everyone else, I suppose ^^
Knowing that you are open to submit yourself to the torture of google translate and that is so easy contact you is an invaluable addition to the forum and I wiil spend all my resources to facilitate a direct contact between you and GentecheGioca ^^


On the specific issue:
The point 3 is what baffled me and prompted me to search on The Forge for an answer. Specifically I needed to understand why the rules are like this.
So this IS a specific rule to reinforce the common vision of the setting. I can draw a sword and be ready to fight in a Social Conflict, but I cannot summon a flaming sword in the F&C of a Combat Conflict: it's out of the "setting"! (Again, "setting" used in the loosest way possible).


The difference beetwen a sword of steel and a flaming sword of fire is only in color... but color here is important!
In the wolrd of Trollbabe magic can be used in a "quick and dirty" way, but only as the scene and the conflict are heating. This implies a use of magic that is never casual or mundane, but always something ponderous, brought on by careful rituals (a Magic Conflict) or as an emergency resource when absolutely needed.


Am I right, Ron, or am I still banging my head on some invisibile barrier?


Thank you again.


PS: The "GURPS guy" is me, not Moreno :-P


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ciao Ron,


E' meraviglioso leggere della tua partecipazione diretta a GcG. Ci saranno probabilmente dei problemi con la lingua (la comunità del forum non è interamente bilingue), ma spero che lavoreremo assieme per risolverli. Per conto mio rimango a tua disposizione per qualunque cosa, così come il resto dello "staff" e... be', tutti presumo ^^
Sapere che sei disposto a sottometterti alla tortura di google translate e che è così facile contattarti è un'aggiunta inestimabile al forum e spenderò tutte le mie risorse per facilitare un contatto diretto tra te e GcG ^^


Sulla questione specifica:
Il punto 3 è quello che mi perplimeva e mi ha indotto a cercare una risposta su The Forge. Specificatamente avevo bisogno di capire perché le regole sono così.
Così questa E' una regola specifica per rinforzare la visione comune del setting. Posso estrarre una spada ed essere pronto a combattere in un Conflitto Sociale, ma non posso evocare una spada di fuoco nella fase Chiara e Trasparente di un Conflitto di Combattimento: è al di fuori del "setting" (di nuovo: "setting" usato nel modo più ampio possibile)


La differenza tra una spada d'acciaio e una spada fiammeggiante di fuoco è solo nel colore... ma il colore è importante!

Nel mondo di Trollbabe la magia può essere usata in modo "rozzo e rapido", ma solo se la scena e il conflitto si stanno scaldando. Ciò implica un uso della magia che non è mai casuale o mondano, ma sempre qualcosa di ponderoso, introdotto da attenti rituali (un Conflitto Magico) o come una risorsa d'emergenza quando serve davvero.


Ho ragione, Ron, ho sto ancora sbattendo la testa contro qualche barriera invisibile?


Grazie ancora.

PS: Il "tizio di GURPS" sono io, non Moreno :-P
« Ultima modifica: 2011-05-27 18:24:58 da Aetius »
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

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Re:[slow down][Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #56 il: 2011-05-27 22:20:37 »
Hello,

You are right, Ezio, but that point will be very weak unless it's integrated with the other two points. There is more at work besides a "gentlemen's agreement" not to violate the genre. Staying with the genre and committing to conflict-heavy play are synonymous in Trollbabe, and that commitment is a matter of finding opportunities in what one another says, as well as simply saying "Conflict!" yourself.

I hope people are not losing the connection to the real thread topic, about magic. Perhaps it would be a good idea to consider the magic scenes and spells in our games at INC. I was GM for one on Friday afternoon and for another on Sunday morning (which is described in a nearby thread). Can anyone who was there talk about those?

Best, Ron

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Re:[Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #57 il: 2011-05-27 22:57:48 »
Hi Ron!

I Removed the "[Slow Down]" tag from the thread, to allow people to post more than a post every day. It was useful when this thread was meandering with people posting quick-fire posts without reading the previous ones, but now it was just a pain in the arse.

I started a thread about how to solve the google translate problem, here: http://www.gentechegioca.it/smf/index.php/topic,4809.0.html

If there is a volunteer for the translation job, I would like to have an italian translation of your post above, it answer not only this thread's question, but a lot of other frequent questions, too.

I will post later about the post content, I wanted only to signal the end of the [slow down] for now.
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Re:[Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #58 il: 2011-05-28 12:37:39 »
Hi Ron,
i've played with you on sunday at INC. I remember quite well all the adventure and i'll call it a really "high magic" setting (based on my taste and on what i give every week to my players as a Trollbabe GM) meanwhile my trollbabe wasn't really in the magic corner of her life.
The adventure rotated around the life of a witch (that was the stake) half naked and covered in snake's skins with the ability to summon and command a giant snake who lived in a lake. She sent those snake hunting and ended up eating a troll, leaving behind 4 young troll without family.
At that point my trollbabe jumped into the action. She found the young trolls and she became aware of the threat of that giant snake.
My first tough was "If we have to fight a magic creature, better use magic!" so i called a Magic Conflict to locate the snake. I lost, using in the process "a remembered spell" (i'm not sure if in english is wrote like that, i'm litteraly translating my italian edition ^^) and that sounded to me like my trollbabe said "well, you know, i'm not a wizard, lets go find that snake and kick him!".
The adventure continued with a lot of super-human act by my trollbabe (jumping 20 meter and stabbing the snake with my sword, sneaking behind him and cutting of his head in a single swing) but nothing really super-natural in the way we usually see magic.

Thinking about this now, after your really usefull thread, make me think that the way it ended was a mixture of choiche:
- I lost my first conflict with magic, so i started thinking "i cannot trust those spirit and i've to use my own strenght to protect those younglings"
- you as a master had already wrote the backstory, so the "world" was full of magic. But the act of my trollbabe was so straight and mundane that there wasn't space for slow magic conflict.
- above that i was calling conflict really hard (i ended with 5 conflict in four scenes plus the leaving scene with no conflict) and i won all of those (excluded the first, the magic one) pushing the story in my "muscle win over magic" vision of the world

I hope this will help, but if i think a little more about that day the adventure of Moreno's trollbabe was so full of magic that will probably be more usefull to this topic.

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Re:[Trollbabe] magia senza conflitto
« Risposta #59 il: 2011-05-30 03:17:36 »
I hope this will help, but if i think a little more about that day the adventure of Moreno's trollbabe was so full of magic that will probably be more usefull to this topic.

No. I already had talked with Ron about the question, a few days before, so I did follow the rules in playing my trollbabe in the Sunday afternoon game. It's rather useless in this topic (I even did a single fighting conflict in the entire game, I think, and did a single reroll)

The only interesting thing, rules-wise, that happened using magic in that adventure, was a sort of tentative, from me, to turn a defeat into something that helped me anyway, in a magic conflict. But I don't know how much it is in topic...

If you remember, my trollbabe encountered a couple of very old men who had killed, in a way or the other, every single man, woman and child in a village, ages ago, and continued to resurrect their shapes to continue their "game".  During the adventure she started a magic conflict with a river (polluted by the war) to get some answers.

When I had to narrate her defeat, with the trollbabe already half-drown by the water of the river, trying to get back in time with her mind, i narrated that she was lost in time, and got out of the water in the past, before the war.

What I wanted to do, was to kill the two men BEFORE they killed everyone else. And I used a narration of defeat to get there. (it was not pre-planned. it was something that came up in my mind after failing the roll)

Ron did frame my following scene in the present, deciding that the time travel was a temporary effect to get me back into the adventure. I had no problem with this, even if I did not think that I was really going out of the adventure (playing in English has a marked reducing effect on the amount of complains to the GM, I should try it at home) but afterwards I wondered about the entire sequence.  But as you can see, it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
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