Partiamo dalle tue prime domande: se può usarli sugli altri minion e sul padrone.
Czege dice questo (dal post
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8257.msg86019#msg86019, lo ricopio qui correggendo i quote non standard di Czege che sono spariti dal post e collegandoli alle domande)
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1. Can the Master put some Weariness onto a Minion by beating him or her?No. He can't hurt you, and you can't hurt him until you have enough Love. You know how dysfunctional families have these crazy, knock-down drag-out fights, clawing and screaming, throwing dishware, and pushing each other through glass windows and shit? It's like that. When you're family, you never exceed each other's tolerances.
2. Do Minions' "More than Human" descriptions affect one another?I'm going to draw from the dysfunctional family analogy for this one as well. The answer is no, not if the player of the targeted minion does not wish his character to be affected. When you're a family, you're so keenly aware of each other's bullshit that you're immune. Sure, you respect your family for what you know they're capable of. But try and put your flame breath on me, I saw it coming and stepped aside.
I'm curious to know whether the Master can conceivably do such a thing without any roll on the GM's part....strangle the Connection for some reason. Bam, no Connection, right? With no roll necessary?Nah. It wouldn't be codependent if a Master could take that kind of decisive action. A Master should be considered physically/mentally temporarily/permanently incapable/unwilling to consider/do such a thing.
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Riguardo al fatto che non si tira per i more-than-human, ecco un brano d'esempio da
questo post di Ron Edwards:
Marek's player was the experienced one, and his More than Human brings up an interesting rules-point. I'm experiencing the same thing with my character Augustin in the Babies/Ooze game. When Marek killed someone using his More than Human, he doesn't have to roll for Violence and hence gains no Self-Loathing; the same applies to Augustin and Villainy based on terror. This is very interesting and in the case of the game last night, played out in two ways. In the first way, when ordered to kill a tavernkeeper he didn't know, Marek had to goad the guy using Villainy and thus did gain Self-Loathing, in order to use his More than Human killing ability. The player and I grinned at each other; this matched his vision of the character perfectly. In the second way, when Marek considered confronting a mob (and could legitimately be considered to have ill-will against the Master and Minions), the question was whether he could simply slaughter them all. That didn't happen, as it turned out, but it interested me to consider how much latitude and scale of effect a Minion with a More than Human of this sort could accomplish. "Anyone" in the description suggests "singly," giving the rest of the mob scope for retaliation or escape, but that seems like a tough point to call right in the thick of play.
The other interesting thing about these More than Human descriptions is that the character is curiously innocent about the activities in question. Augustin, for instance, gained Self-Loathing when he convinced a Connection that it was all right to come to the Master's mansion; even though he was plotting to help the person escape as soon as possible, he knew it was wrong to do in the first place. But he gained no Self-Loathing for terrorizing a family; he literally can't see that it's wrong when he thinks it's in the educational interest of the children involved. I find this to be a very powerful aspect of the rules, rather than an exploitable glitch. The characters do gain Self-Loathing in other (and often related ways), so it's not a Get Out of Jail Free card. And they are actually made somewhat more poignant as tools of the Master, in the sense that he knows precisely how these destructive More than Human descriptions are useful to him, but the Minions kind of don't.-----------------------------------------------------------
Il quote può sembrare un po' criptico,
tre anni dopo Edwards lo riesce a spiegare in termini più "tecnici" così: (il grassetto l'ho aggiunto io)
Maybe I am just not seeing why people find this issue difficult. I'll give an example like Mike's and keep it non-humorous to avoid distraction.
The Minion has "More Than Human: insanely fast, unless he is observed"
The Master says, "Go fetch that actress, her larynx is exactly what I need for the Machine."
The Minion goes to the theater, sits through the play, and then waits for the lights to go down on the curtain call ... at which point he vaults onto the stage, seizes the actress, and dashes away. No roll.
Here's the point of the rules as I see them, though ... the scene isn't over yet. Yes, the Minion has fetched the actress. But no, the scene is not over yet, because at some point, in some way, he has to roll.
You guys seem to be all mixed up about whether the MtH can substitute for a roll or substitute for this rule. Of course it can substitute for a roll. It cannot substitute for this rule. How can that be hard?
Is it useless, then? No! The Minion did get the actress under his power and away from the townspeople, using his MtH. Oh, so it undercut the rule about rolling, then? No! The Minion's scene is clearly not over; the GM and player are obliged (and should be looking forward to) the next bit, whatever it is, which will require a roll.
One last point: the Minion may have fulfilled the obligation to roll before using the MtH as well, for instance, in getting himself positioned up front in the theater, or some other thing that involved setting up the situation where his MtH could be applied. In which case, using the MtH does finish the scene, because the requirement (a roll) has been fulfilled.------------------------------------------
E aggiunge più avanti nello stesso thread:
One clarification to my explanation, given your points, Mike.
The term "scene" can be a little labile here, not exactly the same as "turn." So let's say my Minion snatches the actress using his MtH. Well, when that player's turn comes 'round again, the character is in the condition of "not having fulfilled command yet," because the player hasn't rolled yet. He still has to do that, some way, some how. Which means that the GM has to frame a scene/situation which requires a roll.
The way I said it before, it sounded as if the player got to keep going right then and there, but that's not quite right. Play should move to the next player, and the "not done yet" concept applies to the Minion with the actress when it comes round to him again. All confusion is removed - and stays absolutely consistent both internally and with the rules - if you avoid confounding turn (talking about my character), situation ("fulfilling Master's command"), and scene ("what my character is doing and facing").
Small note: If the player finds a way to use MtH or LtH this time as well, that just means do it again next time. It's not a competition; this is a viable thing to do in story terms.-------------------------------------------------
Nel caso pensiete che questa sia una house-rule di Edwards, Paul Czege aggiunge, nel post successivo:
Thanks Ron. This is exactly how I run it.Io la vedo così: quando devi eseguire un odine del master, o vuoi guadagnare love, o qualunque altra cosa, è un
conflitto (e sde non lo è, è compito del GM inquarartelo in un conflitto). Quello che fai "megio di un umano" o "peggio di un umano" sono
task. Sono l'equivalente in Cani nella Vigna dei singoli rilanci. Fai questo? OK, il rilancio è passato automaticamente, ma non hai vinto ancora la posta. E non la vincerai senza almeno un tiro.
Czege espande la cosa così in un
altro thread:
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I don't let a character's MtH or LtH produce fluctuations in stats. When a MtH or LtH is relevant to the outcome of a scene, the conflict resolution formulae and the various stat fluctuations of success and failure associated with them are set aside, and the scene is roleplayed to conclusion in keeping with the MtH/LtH. The formulae and stat fluctuations are for the minion's struggle to be human. When it comes to the MtH and LtH, there is no question that the character is something other than human. A dog doesn't gain self-loathing for eating from the cat's litterbox. A dog-faced boy doesn't gain Love for tracking down a lost baby with his unerring ability to track anything as long as he does so on all fours.
Can a player use a MtH to sing a troubled Connection to an untroubled sleep? Yes. But consider that there was no human work in it, and so the minion gains no Love. And that dog-faced boy who tracked the lost baby doesn't get Love for having tracked it. What he did was what he is. (He may get Love for how he returns it to the mother. But that depends on an Overture roll.)
Can a player use a MtH to avoid a specific situation that would represent a Violence or Villainy roll for any other minion? Yes. And neither Weariness or Self-loathing is gained.
Can a player use a MtH to avoid rolling in service to a command from the Master? No. The rules require one roll in service to the command.---------------------------------------------------
E Edwards aggiunge subito dopo:
I think my point is not being understood, and so Paul's explanation might be seen as different from what I was saying. It is not different.
No one said anything about MtH or LtH not being "used" or "relevant" in Overture scenes. I am talking about whether they can be utilized to avoid rolling in Overture scenes, thus getting a point of Love without the risk of Self-Loathing.
From what Paul says, no they cannot - if you want that Love, then you need to risk the Self-Loathing, and that means a roll.-------------------------------------
P.S.: già che parliamo di "more than human / less than human", volevo quotare ancora Edwards da
quiAs I see it, one of the most important things about the entire game is that the very terms "More than Human" and "Less than Human" are lies. They represent how the minion sees himself or herself through the lens of their repulsive, victimized relationship with the Master.
It is essential to the role of Love in the game that the Connections can see the minions as really human, with their "less thans" not diminishing their humanity after all; and also that their "more thans" actually do diminish their humanity, rendering them things instead of people, because those are really the only aspects their Master values, what gives them utility toward his ends.
Therefore when I see a minion with a Less Than Human defined as stuttering or a lame leg, or anything similar, it fills me with anger on behalf of the minion, because it means the Master and the Townspeople both unjustly reduce the minion's Humanity through their behavior and belittlement of this very trait. It is through this feature, more than any other, that the minion is humanized in my eyes.
