Autore Topic: [raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.  (Letto 2211 volte)

Moreno Roncucci

  • Big Model Watch
  • Membro
  • *****
    • Mostra profilo
[raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.
« il: 2010-05-29 18:35:29 »
Salve!

Questo è un thread di raccolta, nello spirito delle "storie dell'orrore". Serve per raccogliere argomenti scritti da teorici e game designer CONTRO la regola zero.

Sì, non è un "sondaggio" o un "punto di vista equilibrato". Secondo me l'unico punto di vista veramente equilibrato sulla regola zero è "fuori quello schifo dalle mie partite!", questo è il mio thread, e chiunque ci posti una difesa della regola zero finisce dritto in pattumiera! (nulla comunque impedisce a chi vuole di far partire un thread a FAVORE della regola zero. Basta che non lo faccia nel MIO thread). Per questo ho messo il tag "raccolta", non è un thread di discussione.

Regole: niente off-topic. Niente discussioni (anche queste vanno eventualmente in altri thread).  Si posta il link E INOLTRE la parte che parla della regola zero (non solo i link).

Importante: postate inizialmente in whisper. Se il brano per me merita de-whispero il post e lo rendo pubblico (l'ho detto che questo è il MIO thread, no?)

Questa forma di "controllo del thread" è ben prevista dal regolamento del forum, ed è a disposizione di tutti: iniziate ad usarla, per avere thread meno dispersivi e con meno off-topic!  ;-)

A breve i primi post...

-----------------
Edit: ho dovuto chiudere in fretta perchè qua stavano arrivando lampi tuoni e fulmini...

Mancava prima di tutto il link al mio rant sulla regola zero:
[rant] la regola zero http://www.gentechegioca.it/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=107  (poi proseguita in "Call of Cthulhu e la regola zero" http://www.gentechegioca.it/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=404  )
e
[rant] un discorso sulle regole http://www.gentechegioca.it/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=112

Poi, il senso di questo thread.

Voi non vi siete stancati di ripetere ogni volta spiegazioni su spiegazioni sul perchè la regola zero fa schifo, a chi si chiude le orecchie e fa "la la la la"?

A questo serve questo thread. Una raccolta di motivi per cui la regola zero fa schifo. Date il link e amen, risparmiate tempo e fatica.  Se poi chi vi risponde dimostra di voler davvero dialogare, iniziate un dialogo più personale. Ma così lo scoprite subito senza perdere tempo all'inizio...
« Ultima modifica: 2010-05-29 19:57:34 da Moreno Roncucci »
"Big Model Watch" del Forum (Leggi il  Regolamento) - Vendo un sacco di gdr, fumetti, libri, e altro. L'elenco lo trovi qui

Moreno Roncucci

  • Big Model Watch
  • Membro
  • *****
    • Mostra profilo
[raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.
« Risposta #1 il: 2010-05-29 18:40:02 »
Luke Crane (autore di Burning Wheel, Burning Empires e Mouse Guard, e attualmente credo l'autore Indie con maggiori vendite, a parte forse Edwards...), da questo post nel forum di Burning Wheel:
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?9359-The-F-Word-%28Fun%29&p=93033#post93033

(il thread è relativo all'affermazione secondo cui usare la regola zero è lecito per avere "more fun" per i partecipanti)

The F Word (Fun)

I have found that using the F word -- fun -- when talking about games is unproductive.

Now, I'm not saying that the ultimate goal of a game isn't to have fun. But fun is subjective.

I can have fun posting to the forums.
I can have fun completing a mission in Mouse Guard.
I can have fun in Burning Wheel when my character is beaten to shreds and exiled -- even though my face is purple and I'm pounding on the table, howling with rage, I'm having fun.

I can have fun when I win. I can have fun when I lose.

So fun is everywhere. And apparently, you don't even need a game to have fun. Posting on the forums is fun for me!

So if I don't need a game to have fun, why do I design games? No one needs them.

Because a game is about much more than "fun." Game play is a meaningful part of our culture. Game play engages a significant part of our personalites. Competition, strategy, puzzle-solving, collaboration, fairness, uncertainty, risk, reward -- these are elements of games that make them fun. When we play a game, we enter a special mental space, separate and different from all others in our lives. We agree -- explicitly or implicitly -- to abide by the rules so that all of the players can engage with the activity in a fair and reasonable manner. Now, "fair and reasonable manner" can mean that I get to shoot you in the face during the game -- and you have to leave the field when I do -- but once the game is over, there's no more face-shooting.

Thus in roleplaying games, we engage with a system that challenges us. We use a set of rules that forces us from our comfort zone and encourages us to think and act in a manner we would not otherwise. We play the game. We don't need the game to have fun. We can have fun anywhere, any time. Rather, we use the game to create unanticipated, unexpected results. We use the game to give everyone at the table a role in play. And we engage with that game as a neutral arbiter, to ensure that play is fair.

It just so happens that my games are rigorously playtested. So that in addition to challenging and engaging you, we know that the outcome of the game is likely to amuse and interest you. Maybe not in the moment -- it's hard to say "I'm having fun!" when your patrol mouse is hungry, angry, tired, injured and sick -- but afterwards, when you reflect on those trying events, we think you'll say it was fun. Because in the end, you get to stand up to that crushing weight and, win or lose, fight to be a hero. And I'd much rather have you say about my games, "It was hard -- my patrol mouse was impaled by a shrike," than "it was fun!"
"Big Model Watch" del Forum (Leggi il  Regolamento) - Vendo un sacco di gdr, fumetti, libri, e altro. L'elenco lo trovi qui

Moreno Roncucci

  • Big Model Watch
  • Membro
  • *****
    • Mostra profilo
[raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.
« Risposta #2 il: 2010-05-29 19:52:09 »
Da "Deeper in the Game", il blog di Chris Chinn (Bankuei)

Rule Zero

Over on Story-Games, the “controversy” over Rule Zero rears it’s ugly head again. Of course, like most design/theory/game controversies, it doesn’t really exist when you add context.

Rule Zero, as most folks know it, is “If you don’t like the rules don’t use them.” (implied, and sometimes also stated, “and change them”)

In one sense, this is the strength of roleplaying games, the Lumpley-Care principle at it’s finest- if the group has consensus about how the game should go, that’s how it goes. And certainly, many groups have used it that way and had buttloads of fun.

That of course, also assumes a group that communicates well and has a working social contract.

If you add another rule, common that goes with Rule Zero, which is “The GM is the authority”(implied, assumed, and rarely stated, “over the group“), then Rule Zero quickly slides into dangerous territory. After all, the “you” in “If you don’t like the rules, don’t use them” is no longer applied to the group as a whole, but specifically the authority figure to judge.

The final breakdown comes if this choosing to use or not use the rules by a single person isn’t communicated. (Rolls dice behind screen) “Oops, you missed the check! Too bad!”. Now, effectively, one person is the authority of when rules get applied, if any at all. Other players can never be sure if they’re actually getting full input into the game.

When you also add a bunch of advice suggesting that play is about one person dictating the direction of play, without communicating it (Illusionism), and in order to control that direction you selectively use or not use rules, you’ve now built a poor house for either collective storytelling or even really playing -a game- beyond Simon Says or Mother May I.

And many if not most games that suggest Illusionism highly stress not “over doing it”, not as in, not controlling the game, but more importantly, not doing it in a way that shows the players that their input is not really applied. (of course, if it is good and fun for everyone, why are you hiding it? Why would they be upset? Hmm.)

And then there’s the final bit of real world context that puts this all together. Though individual traditional games may differ on whether they simply have Rule 0, GM as Authority, or Illusionism in the actual rule books- these three have become the default understanding of roleplaying for most people. One usually implies the other three.

The belief that Rule Zero gets to exist cut off from the rest of the game text or from the rest of gamer culture, is naive or disingenous.

For game designers rule zero technically exists at all times- you can’t “make sure” anyone is playing the game the way you wrote/intended. But more importantly, if you explicitly write it, you need to consider what it means for gamer culture at large in that triangle of Fudging, Illusionism and Rule Zero, and that if you don’t want the other two, you’re going to have to go WAY out of your way explaining that and probably end up with dozens of emails of folks asking questions about why things aren’t working when they’re doing something weird with your rules you never wrote.

For gamers, Rule Zero is the source of the Gamer Hurdle. The default for roleplaying culture (which exists in no other gaming hobby), that the written rules are not necessarily a good indicator of how the game is actually played. Which also means, that saying “I’m playing Game X” doesn’t always indicate -what actual game we’re playing- and what kind of experience you can expect from it, and makes it harder for all of us to find games and groups of people who want the same experience.

For new folks who’ve never roleplayed before, while the idea that they don’t actually need to follow the rules is novel- telling them “not to use it” without any advice on what the effects in play would be, or how to fill the gaps provided, means you’ve just said, “If you don’t like the way the game works, design it yourself, have fun!”

In other words, Rule Zero generally does zero for anyone.
"Big Model Watch" del Forum (Leggi il  Regolamento) - Vendo un sacco di gdr, fumetti, libri, e altro. L'elenco lo trovi qui

Mattia Bulgarelli

  • Facilitatore Globale
  • Membro
  • *****
  • Mattia Bulgarelli
    • Mostra profilo
[raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.
« Risposta #3 il: 2010-05-30 02:29:16 »
Citazione
[cite]Autore: Moreno Roncucci[/cite]Serve per raccogliere argomenti scritti da teorici e game designer CONTRO la regola zero.

Se abbiamo scritto mail o Rant di nostro pugno (es.: io) possiamo/posso copia-incollare qui o è OT? Anche se non mi sento per niente un designer né un teorico.
Co-creatore di Dilemma! - Ninja tra i pirati a INC 2010 - Padre del motto "Basta Chiedere™!"

Moreno Roncucci

  • Big Model Watch
  • Membro
  • *****
    • Mostra profilo
[raccolta] People talks about Rule Zero.
« Risposta #4 il: 2010-05-30 02:54:12 »
Citazione
[cite]Autore: Korin Duval[/cite]Se abbiamo scritto mail o Rant di nostro pugno (es.: io) possiamo/posso copia-incollare qui o è OT?


Potete ;-)
"Big Model Watch" del Forum (Leggi il  Regolamento) - Vendo un sacco di gdr, fumetti, libri, e altro. L'elenco lo trovi qui

Tags: