Autore Topic: [Spione] Giocare "in character"  (Letto 9675 volte)

Ezio

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[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« il: 2012-07-03 14:28:35 »
Qui Moreno accenna ad un modo per giocare Spione interpretando i personaggi "in character".
I tre link che posta sono vecchierrimi e di lettura non semplicissima.

Dato che tutte le volte che ho giocato Spione ho preso un approccio "dall'alto" sarei veramente curioso di conoscere queste tecniche. Moreno, puoi parlarcene qui, in Italiano?
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

Ron Edwards

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #1 il: 2012-07-03 15:25:20 »
Hi Ezio,

I will tell you, although in English.

Playing in character is something you can always do, with any character. When you feel a strong identification or inspiration for that character, then speak for them, say what they do, and I hope, do these things in a creative, engaged way.

(The owner of a principal character has veto powers over anything substantial (see the Flashpoint effects lists for what that means) stated for that character by someone else, but notice the very limited nature of that rule. You cannot, for instance, veto a stated action for your principal and say what he or she does instead. Nor is your permission required for anything non-critical stated for your principal.)

It is very, very simple - perhaps too simple when a person has spent their life creating, owning, speaking for, and stating the actions of a single character as the defining act of the hobby.

Think of all the reasons why - the purposes - of creating, owning, speaking for, and stating the actions of a single character. All that effort. All those sheets of paper. All the chapters of the character history. All the numbers. Think about what you do it for, in play.

Now skip all that stupid bullshit, forget that you always associated that purpose with ownership, and simply do it for any character you want, for the simple reason that you feel like you understand that character and have a very strong urge to do it.

That is why the two principals are not necessarily player-characters. Or to put it better, any character becomes a player-character when someone is playing him or her in that way.

You may be running into some trouble because you associate playing a character with creating that character and exerting exclusive ownership rights over him or her. Abandon that association and role-play any character in the story when and how you want.

Spione offers more individual-character role-playing to everyone present than any other game ... because you can always do it when you really want to, with any character in the story.

Best, Ron

Ezio

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #2 il: 2012-07-03 18:59:14 »
Hi, Ron
it's always good to read you ^^

I probably got something wrong in explaining myself or in understanding what Moreno was saying in the other thread. Probably the latter.


I know and use the possibility to "enter" in any charachter, speaking for them and making them protagonist for a scene or more.
I'm also aware of the possibility of spending your narration turn stating only a sentence for a charachter and then pass the turn for someone else to play the answer.


What I was thinking about was a more "classical" approach to the scene.

Last time I played, there was Olga in Operation Shoemaker. She was being interrogated by an HVA official.
Manuela Soriani had the Queen, and was in charge for Olga, I had the Ace and it was my turn in a non-conflict narration.



We reverted for a moment to the classical "back an forth" game: [size=78%] [/size]I started talking in charachter for the official, and Manuela answered talking for Olga.
We exchanged a couple of sntences then I realized what we were doing, stopped the game and resumed the scene stating in a more general way what the Official said and what Olga answered.


There is a technique to continue that scene in the way we were playing it.
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #3 il: 2012-07-03 19:04:52 »

We reverted for a moment to the classical "back an forth" game: I started talking in charachter for the official, and Manuela answered talking for Olga.
We exchanged a couple of sntences then I realized what we were doing, stopped the game and resumed the scene stating in a more general way what the Official said and what Olga answered.



Maybe I'm missing something but... why did you stop the scene? What was wrong with that?
I did this kind of dialogue thing sometimes playing and I never thought I was playing wrong... or was I? °__°
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Ezio

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #4 il: 2012-07-03 19:10:18 »
Really? I don't remember to have ever played like this, but it's possible that I misremember how I played in the past or a rule of the game.
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #5 il: 2012-07-03 19:15:04 »
My doubts are about the scene between Olga and the Stasi Soldier (Officier?).
Ok, in that scene we chatted together (me as Olga and you as the Soldier). But... Was it correct?

Or only YOU had the right to roleplay Olga's part since it was "your turn"?

I'm afraid I'm a little confused about that.

Co-Creatrice di DILEMMA. Amante del GWEP. Non mettetemi in difficoltà con ambientazioni storiche. Il mio amore per Kagematsu/KaGaymatsu tocca le stelle.

Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #6 il: 2012-07-03 19:40:53 »
Ezio and Manuela this is how I like to play Spione. I don't think this is the only way to play it, it's just how I like it (and if Ron is reading this and I misunderstood something, I trust he'll say so).


If you want to play a dialogue in your game you can proceed in different ways, it's the person whose turn it is choice.
He can for instance:
1) Summarize the back and forth of the comversation
2) play one character and ask another player to play the other character involved in the dialogue. He can go on with this as long as he sees, fit, then pass the turn to the next player
3) state one phrase of the dialogue and pass the turn. The following player can answer and pass the turn or do anything else he wants.


Maybe there are also other ways to play a dialogue (I like dialogues in my games, maybe you'll have noticed) but these are the first coming to mind and what I actually did in some games of Spione.


I look forward to hearing from Ron now :)
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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #7 il: 2012-07-03 19:47:42 »
Me too.
The possibility to create a real back-and-forth dialogue could probably rekindle Manuela interest for this game ^^
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #8 il: 2012-07-03 19:55:44 »
The possibility to create a real back-and-forth dialogue could probably rekindle Manuela interest for this game ^^

Absolutely!
^__^

And thanks to all of you.
<3
Co-Creatrice di DILEMMA. Amante del GWEP. Non mettetemi in difficoltà con ambientazioni storiche. Il mio amore per Kagematsu/KaGaymatsu tocca le stelle.

Moreno Roncucci

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #9 il: 2012-07-03 20:02:28 »
Ezio, you did leave out a important information: did you keep "the apple" during the interrogation, or not?

There are roughly two ways to play that scene talking in character, and you can go back-and forth from one or the other when you want during the scene.

The first one: you have something very specific in mind, you only need someone (who can be Manuela or not, but usually in the "without the apple" dialog there is no reason to having the principal played by another player) to "play the character", reacting to what you say. In this case Olga can cry, can shout, can tell you "no, please, stop" or anything Manuela think it's appropriate to her character.  She could, even, add something more substantial, but this is tricky, you have the apple, so anything she says is subject to your veto. You can say "no, she does not do/say that" to anything she say. By the other hand, Manuela is the principal's player, so she has the same "veto power" on anything you want her character to say.
Tricky, as I said: it can work for longer scenes if you two are really on a roll, and play on each other's cues, but the longer it last, the more the risk of having some veto stopping the flow. I usually use that mode for very short bits, when all I need is the principal's reaction to something another character says or do. Then I pass the apple.

The second one. You talk in character, say what the character you are playing says, then pass the apple. The next person can play anybody he/she wants, even the same one you played before, or he/she can play Olga, say something, then pass the apple.
This is not so "blind" as it seems: when you do it in play, after a while you see that Manuela says what Olga says of substantial, and the other people at the table play everything else, from people to the weather, and the apple is moving from person to person so quickly that you can begin talking, pass the apple around, and finish yourself the line of dialogue after the apple has made the entire round, three seconds later.

There is a example right in the first thread I linked from the Spione furum:

Michele: "Issam's home. Horst knock on the door, he is with a a guy wounded by the police" [point at moreno to pass the buck]
Moreno: "Issam, help us! Oper the door" [point at Claudia to pass the buck]
Claudia: [frame Valzyna's first scene]
Michele: "Issam open the door and let them enter" [point at moreno to pass the buck]
Moreno [play in Vanzyna's scene]
Claudia [play in Vanzyna's scene]
Michele: "Issam let the wounded lay down on the couch, as look at his wound" [point at moreno to pass the buck]
Moreno: "the wound is very bad. If this man will not be cured in an hospital, he will die" [point at Claudia to pass the buck]
Claudia: (playing Horst) "can you save him? Please, Issam!" [point at Michele to pass the buck]
Michele: ""Horst, we need to get him to an hospital, or he will die!"[point at moreno to pass the buck]
Moreno: (playing Horst) "We can't go to an hospital! The police is searching for us, he shoot a policeman!" [point at Claudia to pass the buck]
Claudia: (playing Horst) "Issam, you MUST cure him here, it's the only way!"
Claudia [out of character] do you want to enter flashpoint?
Michele: "Yes, but not to convince Horst. I want to save the wounded here"
Moreno: "OK, so from now on, you can't add nothing to this scene until we go to flashpoint.... but I can! You hear police sirens outside of your house, and remember the trail of blood leading to your door..."
Claudia [laugh]
Michele: [groaning] "thank you very much. Let's make Vanzyna go to flashpoint very fast, Ok?"
[...]


The entire scene was played in character.  Issam (the principal) was played only by Michele, as you can see. Me and Claudia together played Horst, taking turns in talking for him, and used the times we had the "apple" to add concrete elements (the wound is almost lethal, the police sirens approaching, etc.)

This way, you can play even very long scenes, with a lot of characters, without having anyone dominating over everything. You only have to learn to say "yes" to each other's contribution. Maybe you wanted to play Horst like a cold experienced man, but you pass the buck/apple and the next player make him drop on his knee crying. No matter. Go with the flow. When it's your turn again make him cry even more (or maybe it was a ruse and he is only playing a part?). If someone add something that you really can't live with, go to flashpoint as soon as you can and use your cards to cancel it.

How that scene would look, played in the fist manner, the one I talked about before, with someone keeping the Apple the entire scene, for fear of "losing control"?

There was an example even of that:

Michele: "I would like to frame a scene in Issam's home. He is resting on the couch when Horst arrive with another radical, wounded in a fight with the police during a demonstration. Horst is desperate and ask for Issam's help."
Moreno: "Issam, help me, we need a place to hide!
Michele "Horst, what are you saying? You can't hide here! You will get me in trouble! And who is this guy?
Moreno: "A friend. He is hurt, please!" - and, changing tone to indicate that he is talking out-of-character "do you want to enter flashpoint?"
Michele: "No, I let him enter"
Michele: (in character): "try to avoid ruining my carpet with the blood"
Moreno: "thanks, Issam, I told him that you could help us, that you are a good friend!"
Michele: "yeah, yeah" ...
Michele (out of character) "Your turn"
Moreno: "you check the wound. It's worse that you thought. If this man will not be cured in an hospital, he will die"
Michele: "Horst, we need to get him to an hospital"
Moreno: "No way! they will arrest us!
[...]

Notice as (1) Moreno (as Horst) doesn't tell, during Michele's turn, anything that isn't already stated in the narration or in the framing of the scene. He simply react, without adding anything substantial. He is simply playing color, somebody for Issam to talk to. and (2) Claudia is not playing. There are only two characters in the scene, played by Moreno and Michele, they are playing a conversation, and she has to wait her turn without any character to play. (OK, she could play the wounded, grunting and moaning...)


Remember that you can jump from one way to the other anytime you want, even in the middle of a scene: all you have to do is stop passing the apple. But it's better to avoid doing so for too long, as you can see in this manner you are only asking the others to help you stage what is really a monologue. Role-playing works better as a dialog.

[edit: crossposted with really a lot of people...]
« Ultima modifica: 2012-07-03 20:06:58 da Moreno Roncucci »
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Ezio

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #10 il: 2012-07-03 20:08:59 »
Ezio, you did leave out a important information: did you keep "the apple" during the interrogation, or not?


Yes, I had.
More on this topic after tonight Civilization game, guys ;-)
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #11 il: 2012-07-03 20:24:51 »
I would like to add only another thing, that I forgot to touch in the previous post.

The "lag time" between player's moves change Spione. As we observed some time ago, Spione-by-Forum is a completely different game from Spione-at-the-table.  At the table, the more you learn to play, the faster the apple move. When the game really roars, the apple is passed so fast that the dialog is natural without any pause.
In Spione-by-Forum this doesn't happen. The "moves" stay long, detailed, narrated more than role-played. The player who has the "apple" write dialog for all the character in the scene. There is less worry about getting something vetoed, because it's simply a matter of editing a post and there is almost no time lost, no flow disruption.  Spione-by-forum is really a "literary" game, it produces a sort of "spy novel" narrative, with long detailed description of moods, emotions, and atmosphere.

I don't know what effect (if any) the Hangout mode of play will have on the game, but I am interested in hearing about it.
« Ultima modifica: 2012-07-03 20:28:53 da Moreno Roncucci »
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Mauro

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #12 il: 2012-07-03 21:28:08 »
Questo può aiutarti, Ezio?

Citazione
Qualunque forma di descrizione è valida, spaziando dal generale al particolareggiato, o dal punto di vista di chiunque, incluso in terza persona.

Riassumendo con descrizioni minimali:

“John Diesel incontra Adler in un aeroporto abbandonato.”

Descrivendo in dettaglio:

“Adler e John si incontrato più tardi, in un campo battuto dal vento vicino a un recinto [“chain-link fence”, sono quei recinti di maglia di acciaio] al bordo dell’Aeroporto di Tempelhof. I lineamenti appuntiti [beaky features] di Adler sono diventati più vecchi e arcigni; sembra un vecchio porata, in una maniera totalmente seria. John appare più vecchio dei suoi ani: le memoria dei crimini dell’Einsatzgruppen hanno avuto tempo di pervaderlo, dalla caffetteria.

Riassumendo interazioni e dialoghi:

“Ad Adler’s non interessa cosa John dice o vuole. Gli dice di portare il suo [his, Adler’s] messaggio al KGB. Il messaggio riguarda il suo accesso a fondi nascosti sin dalla guerra, che lui scambierà per protezione.”

Presentando interazioni e dialoghi dettagliati:

“John dice: ‘Ascolta, è un nuovo mondo ora. Ho una moglie, e una vita che voglio proteggere. Non sto cercando di crearti problemi”. Adler lo interrompe. ‘Pensi che me ne freghi qualcosa? Se gli Zoni venissero a sapere di me, ci tappezzerebbero i loro media, e l’Esercito sarebbe obbligato ad abbandonarmi. Sarò estradato in Israele. Ti sto dicendo, ora, se lascerai che questo accada, potrai prendere tua moglie, tuo fratello, il tuo lavoro, e ficcarteli in culo”. John non ha nulla da replicare, e la voce di Adler diventa strisciante e bassa: ‘Mezzo milione in oro della Crimea. Cinquantamila per te, per dire al KGB che voglio accordarmi.”

Di nuovo, ognuno di questi approcci è permesso, a seconda di quale il giocatore reputa adatto al momento
Non so dirti la pagina, né assicuro che il testo sia esattamente cosí: non avendo il manuale, copio dai file di lavorazione. Però la possibilità di giocarsi l'intero dialogo è espressamente prevista da manuale; indicativamente, nella parte sulle regole: c'è "Manovre: Procedure", "Presentazione", "Alcuni consigli di carattere sociale sulle manovre". Il testo citato è in "Presentazione".

Ezio

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Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #13 il: 2012-07-05 09:14:52 »
Ok, it seems I cannot make me cohomprensible. Sorry, guys.


Let's try like this.


The situation is Olga, controlled by Manuela with her Queen, me with the Ace, Lapo, Simone and Lavinia as the other player.


WHAT I KNOW I CAN DO AND DID


1: During my turn, with the apple in my hand, during Manouvers

I play a first-person dialogue saying: "So, the HVA agent, the Sgt. Muller, tells Olga: <<Your old handler betrayed you, all your ideals are crushed. I can offer you a new life, a new meaning>>. Olga shivers, but keeps her eyes on the eyes of the other spy: <<What I get from this deal?>>, she asks. Muller smiles: <<A new identity, a new work, and a dinner with me in one of the fanciest restaurant of West Berlin>>.


After this my turn is complete and I pass the narration to Manuela.

2: During my turn, with the apple in my hand, during Manouvers.

I play part of a first-person dialogue saying: "So, the HVA agent, the Sgt. Muller, tells Olga: <<Your old handler betrayed you, all your ideals are crushed. I can offer you a new life, a new meaning>>"


After this my turn is complete and I pass the narration to Manuela.

Manuela continues the previous dialogue, providing an answer for Olga and she says: "Olga shivers, but keeps her eyes on the eyes of the other spy: <<What I get from this deal?>> she asks."


After this Manuela pass the turn. We go quickly through Lapo, Manuela and Simone who add quick strokes of colour narration or details on the other Spy. It's my turn again.

I can end the dialogue and say: "Muller smiles: <<A new identity, a new work, and a dinner with me in one of the fanciest restaurant of West Berlin>>"

I pass my turn, it is Manuela turn again.

3: I also know well how to raise the focus, using indirect dialogue or other fancy moves.



WHAT I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN DO

During my turn, with the apple in my hand, during Manouvers

I play part of a first-person dialogue saying: "So, the HVA agent, the Sgt. Muller, tells Olga: <<Your old handler betrayed you, all your ideals are crushed. I can offer you a new life, a new meaning>>"


Now Manuela, acting as Olfa says: "Olga shivers, but keeps her eyes on the eyes of the other spy: <<What I get from this deal?>> she asks."

I look at Manuela, with half a smile and say: "Muller smiles: <<A new identity, a new work, and a dinner with me in one of the fanciest restaurant of West Berlin>>"


NOW my turn is complete and I pass the narration to Manuela.




Moreno, I believe you have already answered to this, as my latter example is similar to your- Am I correct?

If I am I always took autority in Spione a little too much rigidly and I realize not it's simply a veto right for fundamental things, isn't it?
« Ultima modifica: 2012-07-05 10:27:52 da Ezio »
Just because I give you advice it doesn't mean I know more than you, it just means I've done more stupid shit.

Re:[Spione] Giocare "in character"
« Risposta #14 il: 2012-07-05 13:16:19 »
I think the important thing is: when it your turn it's your choice how much of your authority you wish to give away.
It's not so different from when it's your turn and somebody suggests a cool idea: it's totally up to you to accept it and make it a part of your narration or ignore it. Same with asking somebody to help you give life to a dialogue: the authority is still yours, you just decided to accept contributes from someone else.


In my experience, the best games of Spione were quite a collective thing in which the reins of the story changed hands. With each change there was a clear pull in a certain direction but usually other cotributes were also accepted.


Not sure if I explained myself clearly...
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