Gente Che Gioca > Gioco Concreto
Serpente di Cenere: chi me lo spiega?
Jiituomas:
Moreno, it is now obvious to me that you have completely missed both the adaptability of the character and the point of the game. Because strangely enough, many people in various countries have somehow managed to make that character their very own, and have had no problem with making the game run very differently from one run to the next.
As I have said before, the problem is that you have a very limited concept yourself on where a character should offer freedoms, and where you can add more yourself. And that is not an issue of debate, but an issue of your prejudices against certain types of design. You somehow manage to take a very, very open script and consider it limiting in a manner you are not comfortable with, then call that a general fault, and blame people for defending it.
And thus you are indeed moving towards the "murk" approach, just from a different direction. If the design has one problem - and this one it certainly does - is that it does not work at all for people who have such a narrow vision of "playable larp" as yourself. This also happened, for example, at a run in Scotland to some extent. And my view, based on actual field data (Serpente, for example, has now been run at least 17 times, in at least 10 countries - as some people may have not told me of running it) instead of just a personal opinion like yours, is that most of the people who have a strongly negative reaction to it are people who want a communicated narrative vision - but on their own terms, and do not see adaptability even when it stares them in the face, because the game's nuances are too subtle for them.
As I will not want this to develop into me defending the design, Moreno insulting it (as he most certainly will, if the last post is any indicator), I suggest people take a look at it themselves. The communication gap is obvious enough. For me, the numbers say that the problems is at the other end, not in me constructing straw men to cover the "design fault" that some players simply can't adapt to different styles of play.
Rafu:
--- Citazione ---[cite]Autore: Moreno Roncucci[/cite]Let's quote from my character sheet
--- Termina citazione ---
Moreno, ricorda che la discussione era iniziata da chi il gioco non l'ha ancora giocato. Magari metti uno "spoiler alert" di qualche genere. ^_^;;
Niccolò:
hi jituomas
we shared a grappa in ambercon, and you may remember me playing the creepy major in the pleasantville/matrix live
how are you?
i'm here to try to clear the waters
i don't think moreno is calling serpente di cenere a WRONG game, he's just explaining why it doesn't suit his tastes. in a very strong and assertive manner, but that's just his persona.
i can see both your and his points of view. from what i've gathered, serpente di cenere is probably best suited in a nordic environment than in italy, where character immersion is a better developed goal both in terms of play techniques and in terms of player expectation. without that kind of environment (i.e. playing with nordic, larp-enthusiastic players, used to look for their own enjoyement of the game) and that kind of culture and skill (i.e. a shared curpus of techniques and signals for looking for your onw enjoyement) a larp could end up a lot shallowier than expected.
"you are not good enough to enjoy this live" is a perfectly valid answer, nontheless it feels a little cheap.
a solution could be: integrate some example of these techs, of these approaches, in the game text. as examples or even as a part of the game. the good rejection of serpente di cenere you reported is in no way under attack, but at the same time is no defense against the kind of crtiques/suggestion moreno is writing. hell, there is really nothing to defend against :D
(sorry for my eng!)
Niccolò:
--- Citazione ---Moreno, ricorda che la discussione era iniziata da chi il gioco non l'ha ancora giocato. Magari metti uno "spoiler alert" di qualche genere. ^_^;;
--- Termina citazione ---
ho saltato!
Mauro:
--- Citazione ---[cite]Autore: Jiituomas[/cite]my view, based on actual field data (Serpente, for example, has now been run at least 17 times, in at least 10 countries - as some people may have not told me of running it) instead of just a personal opinion like yours, is that most of the people who have a strongly negative reaction to it are people who want a communicated narrative vision -but on their own terms, and do not see adaptability even when it stares them in the face, because the game's nuances are too subtle for them
--- Termina citazione ---
Where do you see such adaptability? People who managed to make their own version of characters did it by changin what was written, or in which way? I don't mean these questions as a blast, I underline this, but I think it would be more clear if you'd outline where, differently from Moreno's point of view, you see the adaptability you spoke about.
Also, I've not clear what do yuo mean with "the people who have a strongly negative reaction to it are people who want a communicated narrative vision -but on their own terms"; I've it not clear because, as far as I understood it, Moreno doesn't want any narrative vision; on the contrary, he wants the possibility to give to the game, or to the character, his own narrative vision. I mean: the game can have a premise, a narrative direction (such as Dogs in the Vineyard: characters are young people bringing God's judgment), but the character should be personalizable by the player, at least something about it should be undefined, at most only vaguely outlined.
I don't mean all games must be that way, I only think Moreno was saying that; and, if I'm right, I've not clear what do you mean in the previous quote.
Edit: If I misunderstood Moreno's view, please let me know and ignore this message.
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